Anyone using a muscle oxygen sensor for complementing TR workouts

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I should have clarified that I found this after the fact, when analyzing the Garmin data from a TR Ramp Test in WKO5. You’re right that the color changes on the Garmin in real time don’t seem to correspond directly to current SmO2 levels.

The image is a zoomed in look at a WKO5 chart showing SmO2 and Humon color (Humon Garmin “Endurance” data field) vs time. The selected area is the approx 1 min “level” spot after the Humon switched to orange and before SmO2 started to drop rapidly.

My avg power during this period was very close to what I expected my FTP to be, though this could be a coincidence. There is a second, shorter, “flat” just before it turns to red, but there’s no way my FTP is that high…

Anyway - a little more info. We’ll see how it looks when I do my next ramp test in 4 weeks. Hopefully I won’t bail on that one early, too.

It’s my understanding that the colors correspond to how the smo2 is changing, not corresponding to the value. So you could have a very low number, say 30%, and it be possible to be represented by any of the 4 colors.

That is correct, color mostly corresponds to the first derivative/slope of the data. Upward slope in data is blue, steady state is green and the slower decline is orange and the larger decline/no more gas in the tank is red. You can see the numbers corresponding to the colors in Golden Cheetah in Edit/Developer.

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Digging around a little, I found this. Maybe it will help answer your question?

App is dead for me as of today…:frowning:

Where are you coming up with the .1661 multiplier?

Disclaimer: I use the term FTP here but Humon may be measuring LT, CP or some other measure that correlates somehow with aerobic endurance.

The slope 0.1661 was based on 5-6 separate tests over a year or so. I plotted the value of FTP that Humon reported for each test as a function of time (in seconds) of the test when the color chart of the workout Humon shows you in the Ap turned red. The best fit was a straight line with that slope. I wasn’t sure how they handled incremental data (30W intervals) yet gave continuous results FTP. They just use that slope.

As an aside, when the Humon first came out, there was no dedicated FTP protocol in the iphone Ap. You would select a workout (endurance, intervals) and it would just show you SmO2 in a color to indicate recovery/SS/nearing limit/limit. Based on some emails with Humon on FTP testing, I made a TR workout with a smoothly increasing slope (no intervals). It didn’t work. SmO2 turned red way below predicted FTP, could flop back to blue and green at higher efforts. This would all be OK if the pattern was reproducible from test to test but it was all over the place. It’s really too bad because what could better than a FTP test where you just increase power until you hit FTP and then stop?

Here is that workout if anyone wants to play with it. Log In to TrainerRoad

Is anyone still using a muscle oxygen sensor?

I was curious about Moxy. Using it to find performance limiters sounds interesting.

I listened to the That Triathlon Show podcast on Moxy and they were talking about muscle O2 intervals - doing intervals and backing off if O2 level drops so you can do more intervals.

It sounds interesting but maybe not $800 interesting.

Is a Humon Hex device still useful at all if one found one?

There was a company in Spain, if I recall correctly, that continued to support the device after Humon went bust. I think they might have been the European distributor

That’s interesting. I did see some links that were humon.io and others that were humon.es. I also found reference to the Moxzone app on humon.es.

It is if you use a garmin head unit that supports the humon ciq field. I found the data neat, but not particularly useful.

Agree - neat but not really actionable.

It does seem to correlate well with how I feel during a given effort, but I already know how I feel during that effort. I guess objective confirmation that I’m miserable is fun, though.

The iOS app and Garmin field both still work fine for me, though I installed them before Humon went under so don’t know if they’re still available if you manage to find a unit out there.

UPDATE Not two hours after posting this I did an indoor trainer ride, the first using my just-received new phone. The Humon App does not work any longer, and though there may be a way to connect to my Garmin 830 without it, my Humon device is likely now officially a brick.

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So if one goes with a Moxy - how do they tell you your performance limiters and is it actionable?

I downloaded their guide for cycling.

Basically they are finding what looks like a recovery zone, endurance zone (Z2) but maybe it includes tempo?, the grey zone (Z3) and high intensity, above threshold. They talk about doing what is essentially high Z2 intervals and high intensity intervals. Can you say polarized? It’s hard to see how the Moxy would be a game changer for me. Interesting maybe. If it was $150, ok, but it costs $800.

Fresh update from @SpareCycles. It’s always worth a reading:

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Thanks! Those articles are quite comprehensive.

Thanks @jarsson

Nicest compliment you could give me :grin:

I kind of agree, for everyday training. I think muscle oxygenation is like using a continuous glucose monitor: you can gain a ton of insight for the first two weeks of using it if you know how to, or you have someone who can interpret the data. But the marginal insight gained after that declines quickly. Maybe it would be better used by coaches who can rent out a NIRS sensor to their athletes for periods of time to ‘calibrate’ their training, then pass them on.

I agree, although I think this might be more important than you give it credit for: I also find muscle oxygenation correlates very well to perceived exertion & sensations. Which means, as above, that we can use NIRS to calibrate our sensations during low or high intensity training, without being beholden to watching the numbers.

But we have to understand what those sensations mean, and what sensations we should be targeting. SmO2 gives us another quantitative dimension (alongside power, HR, cadence, etc.) to contextualize our sensations. Then we can let our brains do the work of integrating all the signals and returning a wholistic feedback about the current effort. And If we respect those sensations, understand what our intended effort level is for the particular training session, and put our egos aside by not chasing numbers that don’t match, we’ll probably get more out of our training sessions.

I’ll give my basic actionable suggestions for using muscle oxygenation in practice. This advise is mostly assuming we’re measuring NIRS at the vastus lateralis of the quads. Responses will change at different muscles, of course.

Generally speaking, we can look at two parameters: (1) the percent saturation (SmO2) value, and (2) the rate of change. I’m not even gonna talk about THb right now, because that opens up a whole can of conflicting interpretations. The absolute Smo2 value is imprecise within ±5%, meaning a difference of 10% between legs, or between days, or between one minute to the next, isn’t really meaningful. Although as we use it more, we can narrow down what our own smallest worthwhile change is.

At low intensity I look at the value and try to keep SmO2 above a certain target, which is close to my physiological maxima (individually determined). Basically, the highest balance of power and oxygenation. This always forces me to ride at a much lower intensity than I expect, and I have to re-calibrate my perception of effort for low-intensity training quite often. This is because the goal of low intensity training is often to maintain a high perfusion of blood, O2, substrate, nutrients. (I’m not trying to be prescriptive here, just descriptive. The goals of low-intensity training will vary as much as anything else)

At high intensity I look more at the slope, or rate of change in SmO2. But also at min and max points. What profile I’m looking for depends on what I’m trying to accomplish with my intervals. We could be trying to repeatedly deoxygenate and reoxygenate across as wide a dynamic range as possible (lowest min, highest max) with repeated sprint training. We could be trying to maintain SmO2 at some target value for some long interval duration, without letting it creep down or up. We could be trying to drop SmO2 quickly, then allow it to creep back up to some target as gradually as possible by modulating power or cadence.

Lots of possibilities. But again, we need to understand, or we need to work with someone who understands the why, and can interpret the data to inform future training decisions. Honestly, at this point I think we’re mostly still making up the interpretations experimentally as we go along. Which is exciting, because the field is growing in multiple interesting directions. But it’s also why there aren’t yet established, systematic prescriptive guidelines for muscle oxygenation as there are for power or HR.

For more education, I highly recommend the Moxy Summit conferences over the past few years. The last two virtual summits are freely available. This is probably the most accessible source of actionable information around how researchers & coaches are using muscle oxygenation in practice. I gave a presentation this year. I especially recommend watching Dr. Brett Kirby’s talk this year, and his previous talk from 2017 (which I think is behind a paywall).

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