Catch 22 on VO2 work

[nash031]

I think I’d probably get the VO2 “feeling” at 130% if I dialed it up for the entire 30/30 block. What I meant was I didn’t crest above 154bpm (border of zone 2/3 for me) until the final 30s interval where I just jammed it. I didn’t mean to imply that I thought I could sustain 160-170% for 14 30/30 intervals - no way.

To answer your question, I am running my SuperSix on a Cycleops Fluid2 using my Vector 3s. That setup has dictated my cadence a little bit in order to hit goal power. Where I might get more benefit running 110rpm, in order to meet goal power I was running more in the 100-105rpm range. That said, I get my Kickr Core today, so my setup is going to change to where I can better self-select cadence ranges.

I’m not yet sure what trainer setup I’ll use, but it’ll either be powermatch to the vector 3s or if there’s only small difference between the vectors and the Core, I may just run with the Core.

[Bioteknik]

There is another vo2 thread out there that had some good discussion in it. Basically some people have a decent amount of anaerobic contribution before needing to kick in vo2. Those people have a relatively slow hr response.

What i get out of that discussion from my own experiences is that i probably can’t do all efforts at the same power, but try to burn through those anaerobic systems in the first few intervals before finding a repeatable power that will probably be below the target but gets a really good physiological response. (High hr, labored breathing)

Outside i don’t have a problem with hr lag, that’s because i usually push really hard for the first 15-20 seconds before settling in on a steady effort.

With all the recent talk that time at vo2 max instead of time at vo2max power is the best metric to improve vo2 max i will be doing all my future vo2 intervals by feel/rpe

[dbf]

One to go, one to go, one to go!!!

Been keeping on track, except for Tuesday this week. Felt extra tired coming out of weekend (ended up with 145 TSS Sunday), started Hurd -2 and while I felt like I could have done it if I dug deep enough I also wanted to not get deeper in fatigue hole with Bashful and Shortoff +4 coming. So I made it through first set of Hurd (to prove to myself I could do 2.5 min. at 120% and 3-min. in Shortoff won’t be such a big leap) and then shut it down to rest.

Yesterday was solid in Bashful so feel good about the choice!

[osmondcreative]

I wanna see the FTP test before and after this!
Awesome job man!

[Captain_Doughnutman]

Doughnut Seal of Approval.

[dbf]

I wanna see the FTP test before and after this!

That makes two of us

[Captain_Doughnutman]

I asked the forum, a long time ago, what the direct effect on FTP is from raising VO2max…I believe the answer was 1:1. In other words, raising you VO2 by 5% would produce an equivalent 5% rise in FTP. I’ll try to find the post and some relevant info.

[stevemz]

It’s not a 1:1 ratio and it varies by individual (and within an individuals seasonal progression)

[DMC]

Sorry if this was mentioned somewhere in this long thread, my apologies. But, how relative is max HR to vo2? i just did Mills, well the other day, and my max HR was 179. I usually average 185/190 for say a CX and XC. Max is anywhere from 200-205 which i hit in crits usually for the sprint.
Maybe my ftp is too low? Or does this seem about right?

[bbarrera]

you posted this in another thread: https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/448674-vo2max-7-day-protocol-valley-

2 Week Post-Protocol Gains: 20km TT Performance

• Power: +6%
• Time: -4%

2 Week Post-Protocol Gains: General Performance

• PPO: +7%
• VO2peak: +3%
• LT Power: +4%
• Aerobic Economy: +4%
• Gross Efficiency: +5%

The other way to think about it - even if FTP stays the same a 3-week Coach Chad FTP boost block of training should change the shape of your power-duration curve:

After working on vo2max, you should see the entire curve change shape including some “lifting” of ftp efforts.

[wapes]

Where can I find this magic list of Vo2 workouts?

[RobertSims]

The list of workouts was a 8-9 workout plan which is listed near the top of this thread.

[Captain_Doughnutman]

Found the posts…for what it’s worth:

Is there an FTP limit per person?

Question: VO2 training can “pull” FTP up, but by how much? Is there a general ratio or is it another case of individualized “it depends”? Ex. the Hickson study raised VO2max by 44%; what was the accompanying increase in FTP?

Is there an FTP limit per person?

All else equal, a VO2 max increase will deliver an equal % increase in FTP. The two things in the all else equal statement that matter are mechanical efficiency, and % of VO2 max that can be held for a given duration - which I believe is largely driven by lactate clearing ability. Generally, I think you’ll see similar FTP gains. One interesting thing about the Hickson study though is the variability in response by participant. If I recall, one participant saw almost no increase in VO2max, and…

[stevemz]

The operative issue is the “all else equal” portion

Given that stimulating energy systems have their own upsides and downsides, it’s unlikely to see a 1:1 correlation in training VO2max power as it relates to FTP increases.

[dbf]

Today was VO2 school graduation day… I made it!

Now just endurance ride tomorrow, recovery week and then ramp baby!

[nash031]

@dbf

Thanks for the discussion again, guys. As you said, I’m suspecting that I can get pretty good anaerobic contribution because HR response was again slow today during Bluebell.

I did the first set as scheduled at 120% FTP (1:00 on; 1:00 recovery). HR got up to 160 (rather than 154 in Taylor, my LTHR is in the 170s), so the longer interval achieved more high-end aerobic response, but still not what I’m looking for.

I dialed up intensity by 5% between sets, target now 126% of FTP, and those intervals all ended with avg and NP above the original 120% target. HR only maxed at 162bpm, and RPE was a little tougher, but still very manageable.

I dialed up another 5%, target now 132% of FTP, and got to where I think if I had done all three sets there, I would’ve gotten the high-end adaptation from the short intervals. I felt burn in all six intervals, but not till late in the interval, and HR got up to 165, though I was still well below ventilation threshold. I think if this was the first set, by the third set I would’ve had a pretty good effort going.

While future VO2 workouts get longer intervals still, I will probably dial up intensity from the start for two reasons: 1) To drive Erg mode/PowerMatch to stay above the minimum 120% FTP target (and also to get that target over the mental barrier of 300W); 2) to achieve higher end aerobic work by burning up anaerobic matches faster.

Interestingly, I’ve always raced as a steady-state guy (triathlete, climber), but I have some short punch not so much for sprinting but for rolling hills. It could be that TR is showing me a strength I wasn’t truly aware of on the bike. Not sure it’ll change much, but good information nonetheless.

[martinheadon]

Thanks for the discussion again, guys. As you said, I’m suspecting that I can get pretty good anaerobic contribution because HR response was again slow today during Bluebell.

Others (like the person who wrote it) might correct me, but I don’t think Bluebell is really supposed to be a VO2 workout. It’s more of a workout to get you used to what zone 5 efforts feel like as part of the training plan progression. Then (in SSBMV2 at least) you go up to 2 minute intervals the week after, then finally the 3 minute intervals with Spencer +2. You shouldn’t need to dial up the intensity in that one!!!

[nash031]

Yeah, based on experience with Taylor -2 and then Bluebell today, my guess is that by the time I’m in to the 3-minute intervals, the 120% of FTP will feel how it should. For the shorter ones building into that, I’m planning to bump it up 5% from the start.

[dbf]

Not that our HR and response are the same @nash031, but to shed light on difference between Taylor 1-min. intervals and VO2 intervals 3-minutes long:

• I did Taylor a couple weeks ago. My HR peaked at 171 at end of first set. By end of third/final set it peaked at 175

• Did Shortoff +4 the other day, with 3 3x3-min. @120% with 4-min. recoveries. By final interval my HR peaked at 185.

[nash031]

Thanks, that’s helpful and I’m guessing that I will see the same trend as the intervals lengthen. I plan to go into those first 3:00 jobbers at plan intensity and see how it goes. I’m “old”, or at least I’ve been doing this long enough to have learned a lot of training lessons, and tend to be conservative with this stuff… but I also know myself pretty well and know that I wasn’t getting the RPE I should during VO2 work through these first two workouts.