Experiment Fasted Training

fasted-training

#38

No and Yes :slight_smile:

The body simply replenishes it energy stores
i.e. glycogen stores and then fat.
And it does the reverse when utilising it.

It doesn’t turn on a special switch after fasting to say - I’m going to change the way I do this from now on.

I’ve also read ‘somewhere’ the same text - but I can only see this in context of metabolic rate. i.e. Once the body has been starved excessively (beyond most intermittent fasting regimes) the metabolic rate slows and using up stores next time becomes a slower process.

Indeed, if switching on fat storage happened every time someone fasted they would see more being stored until the loss stopped altogether - which just doesn’t seem to be the case.

Fat loss with IF (or any restriction or diet) only appears to slow as body fat percentage falls to low levels. Quite understandable if there is much less of a particular fuel to metabolise.

And Yes, to the well balanced diet - and that a well balanced diet should include a well timed consumption. IF may provide a way to make that well balanced diet even more effective.

It does seem to change the way the body uses fuel and repairs itself and (n=1) I can see and feel the fat disappearing from under my skin as the weeks progress in a way I haven’t before, without having to weigh and count every last calorie.

All in all - each to their own.


#39

i think you better do some research…
e.g. https://casereports.bmj.com/content/2018/bcr-2017-221854

and you can find much more


#40

I find intermittent fasting interesting and have been observing it for 15+ years back when I was crushing WODs and eating Paleo in my CrossFit days.:roll_eyes: My friends experimented with fasting and all seemed to enjoy it while in the process, but none of them stuck with it and it appeared to be a bit of a temporary fad. Or maybe it was a means to an end and they reverted back to traditional eating habits after reaching their goals. :man_shrugging:

I’ve never tried intermittent fasting and have always been of the opinion that I don’t want to survive, I want to thrive. To thrive as a competitive athlete I need to fuel my body timely, fully and without restrictions. I will likely never be without food in life or on the bike. I also have no weight issues or struggle eating in competition.

So, fasting doesn’t make sense for me (even though I’m aware off all the science), but we are not all created equal. I enjoy and wish the best of luck to those who experiment what works best for them.


#41

Carried on with WK1 SSB2 but tried another Ramp test today (Non fast day and the News Years alcohol has had plenty of chance to clear the system)

FTP up from 240 to 253


#42

lebowskii98

FatBoySlim

11h

Doesn’t research also show that those who fast gain more weight after they stop fasting? I’m sure I’ve read this somewhere. The body responds to a fasted state by ensuring it has more fat for the next time it encounters “famine”. If you want to keep the pounds off then I still think a well balanced diet is the best method.

Quite the opposite actually. What you have described is the direct result of calorie reduced diets. Thats why society is at where it is today. The eat less move more movement has not worked for the last 50 years and that is why we have such a high obesity problem. Look at the contestants from the biggest loser. Highly calorie restricted and most if not all have gained all the weight back as well as permanently damaged there metabolism.

IF or fasting in general supposedly does not reduce the metabolism by much at all until you get under 4% body fat.
Here is an interesting article.

How do you do a proper reply with quote here?


#43

Sure, it worked well until it didn’t. Then you gained all the weight back. Is this type of lifestyle actually sustainable long term?


#44

Well had a couple burger patties last night about 500 Calories. Big mistake. That triggered a urge to eat. Had a bunch of pickles and cheese last night. Not the end of the world but not pleased with it. Weight stayed the same today. Going to stick to miso soup for the next 2 days so will be around 90-120 calories a day and then will switch to bone broth once a day for vitamins and minerals and 1 or 2 electrolyte tabs a day.

Trying hard not to ride today as its an off day. Went to the pool for lane swim today for the first time in 25 years. Did 750 meters. A little tired and will be sore tomorrow but was fun. Ill probably get board later and do recess ride again…

Anyone use the Elevate plug in for strava? I was checking it today and my fatigue at its highest was 75.8 percent. Today its at 48.7%… How accurate is that?


#45

bherbers

3m

The point is that it worked well and I felt great. It was very effective at losing the weight.

Sure, it worked well until it didn’t. Then you gained all the weight back. Is this type of lifestyle actually sustainable long term?

Yes it worked well until I chose not to do the right thing for myself and was weak and screwed up. (Lets pound that one home thank you!!!) Fasting for life is not a long term solution, I would like to live! At one point I was over 100 pounds overweight. Now I am 38-43 lbs overweight and my ftp went up from around 223 to 292 but I think its actually over 300 now.

Fasting is a way to get to my goal weight with much less cost to myself than the traditional calorie reduced diet. Once there I will switch to intermittent fasting and eat 2-3 meals one day and 1-2 the next. Of course it will require experimentation to figure out what I actually need at that point for homeostasis.


#46

If I may suggest something. What you are doing is almost akin to Water Fasting which I have done in the past. When you fast for an extended period of time, your blood volume and Red blood cells decrease quite dramatically. You lose a lot of fitness. Also, this rapid weightloss is not sustainable. You will gain a chunk of it back. My suggestion is to go with slower approach with a small calorie deficit. This is the approach I am currently taking.

IMHO, Fasting and Keto do not go with Endurance sports as our body evolved to metabolize Glucose for fuel via the ATP and Citric Acid (Krebs) cycle.
YMMV.


#47

I appreciate your input. Ive used this method to lose over 50 lbs and it has stayed off. Also I am 50 years old in just under 2 months. I am much more concerned about my health than I am about being an endurance athlete. My ftp has increased on this journey over 70 points and I am riding at a level that I have not seen since my early 20’s, mainly because I have not really ridden much since my 20’s until the last 2 years. This past year I rode 12000 km including a 1600 km 6 day trip where I rode 311 km the first day and did most of the trip in a fasted state. In fact the first day I took in Under 100 Calories and burnt over 12000 according to Strava.

I would suggest you read “The Obesity Code” and “the Complete Guide to Fasting” by Dr. Jason Fung. It may change your idea on some of the more common material. I know Coach Chad thinks a lot of his work.


#48

Been 16/8 fasting for a couple of months now and I have done my TR saturday 2 hour rides at about 14 hour fasted and to my surprise had no problems completing. I find I have to count my calories daily because I can eat a lot of food in a 8 hour window. 15 or so years ago I went from 285 to 185 pounds by counting calories and am at 175 today. Counting calories is my go to when I really want to lose weight but it’s kind of a hobby of mine to try different things. Just my thoughts on the matter.


#49

I combine intermitted fasting and a modified SSBHV. At least 3 sessions per week are in fasted state, early in the morning. Yesterday I did a 4x20 min SST in the afternoon a few hours after lunch and it was really easy!

It seems that doing the training in fasted state helps progression, for me at least.


#50

So I’ve done some reading over the last 24 hours along with looking back at my last fast. I’ve also been looking at the food labels of what I’ve been consuming.
I realized that im really sabotaging this fast and not really fasting. I’ve been doing more of a calorie reduced keto.
So I’m cutting out miso, mct oil, coconut oil, bone broth, cream for tea and fish oil pills.

The miso is different than what I used before and really could be triggering an insulin reaction leading to cravings.

So I’m limiting myself to lemon/lime juice with water or apple cider vinegar with water, green and black tea, electrolytes a couple of vitamins.

On another note rode Reinstein today.
1.5 hours 1143 calories burnt. Electrolyte tablet 9 calories. Feel quite good and ride went well. Scale is dead and needs batteries so no weight today.

Also did Wim Hof Day one work.


#51

I was listening to a podcast, Ben Greenfield I think, and the person he was interviewing indicated that one of the bodies first strategies to deal with short IF style fasts is to catabolize cells that are at the end of their lifespan or that are otherwise not performing well. This is where they think the anti aging and anti cancer effects come from. Conversely, when the carbs some regularly, the body tries to sustain these old and marginally productive cells. Basically the IF promotes a regular housekeeping effect. Seemend like it wasn’t exactly settled science, but it seems like a reasonable hypothesis.


#52

An excellent point. Heres part of an article tied to ketosis or a keto diet.

"Over time your cells, or parts of them, can naturally degrade. The entirety of every cell in your body actually has a pre-programmed death (called apoptosis). This is perfectly normal and is a part of how our body constantly expels old material and replenishes itself with new cells. When only parts of the cell are damaged and in need of replacement autophagy is the process by which that happens. And once those old cell parts are broken down they’re sent to other parts of the body to be recycled into use for creating new energy or to rebuild other cells.

Damaged cells, usually, don’t have fully functional mitochondria (the powerhouse of the cell), so they don’t manage energy as well. Getting rid of damaged cells, and having new ones built to replace them means, over time, you’ll have better energy partitioning at a cellular level.

Great, Mandy, what does this have to do with keto?

Well, I’m glad you asked.

Because Ketogenic eating keeps us full and we can go longer and longer periods without eating, we keep our insulin levels low. Insulin, it turns out, in addition to all its other metabolic functions, also operates as an “off” switch for autophagy. When insulin response is triggered, autophagy stops. This is because autophagy is tied to glucagon, which is the hormone that keeps your blood glucose steady when you are fasting or when you’re not feeding your body stuff that raises blood sugar. The glucagon levels in your system trigger autophagy. Insulin, which lowers blood glucose levels by shoving excesses into your cells to be stored as fat, is the biological opposite of glucagon and its release triggers drops in glucagon.

The longer you go without eating (in other words, you are in a fasted state), the longer you have gone without an insulin response, the more glucagon gets floating around your system. Glucagon simultaneously tells the body to begin the process of autophagy and to produce the growth hormones needed to regenerate cells and cell parts that are in need of replacement. As soon as you stimulate insulin release, all of that stops cold."


#53

Jan 6
Weight 203.9
Ride Glassy
Time 1:20
Calories 1033
Calories in 27
Fatigue 58.9
Ketonix 56

Feel good. Did a lot of foam rolling today. Will do some cold therapy today with Wim Hof Day 2.


#54

Pickles, olives, or literally just eat a half tsp of salt. Really it’s best if you get the salt in before you do the workout to avoid headache risk entirely. I’d recommend the book The Salt Fix if you’re having reservations about health impact of sodium.


#55

You may wish to review Metabolic characteristics of keto-adapted ultra-endurance runners to at least challenge your humble opinion. Fat absolutely feeds the krebs cycle, and athletes that make the switch have definitely found it to work for performance. The science is showing low carb athletes burn much more fat per minute, and the crossover point where glycogen becomes the primary fuel is pushed to higher intensities such that actually it depletes at a similar rate. None of this is to say it’s superior, rather it’s an alternative fueling strategy… one that works at the elite level of endurance sport.

Now there certainly could be a selection effect. Some athletes tolerate carbs better than others, and in a world where carb-centric education is primary it’s easy to convince yourself their success is because of the carbs they eat, rather than a tolerance to them. But we’re starting to see examples where middling performers switch and start to place. Just imagine how many promising young athletes dropped out of sport early because high-carb/more-carb just didn’t work for them so they gave up, thinking there to be no other option.


#56

Thanks @gcarver. Will check it out.


#57

No science or research links, just my personal experience, IF, low carb, keto are all compatible with endurance sports within a certain intensity limit.

I got back on the bike this year after four years off and had a few pounds to lose, not to mention some dietary habits that needed improving.

Giving up alcohol made a huge impact, but going very low carb (<100g/day) compared to my usual diet had me feeling great. I was riding 10-15 hr weeks and up to 5-6hr rides on next to no fuel. Full disclosure, I’m an experienced cyclist and being skinny and strong hasn’t been an issue so I wasn’t focused on weight loss only.

The catch is this was primarily z2 base work. Things changed rapidly when I signed up for TR and started SSBMV2. My FTP was 270 and I was failing anything over sweetspot.

Back on a higher carb lower fat diet and finishing up General Build HV in two weeks feeling great. My FTP is 315 and I can push most workouts 5-10% without issues.

If you want to lose weight and feel good, I think fasting, keto, etc are great options. Keep the volume up and you’ll get stronger.

If your primary goal is being faster learn to use carbs as a tool for that. Eat them on the bike, pre ride and as needed. Veggies and lean protein the rest of the time.

Again, not scientific, just my personal experience.