FTP vs NP relationship


#1

Just a quick question folks.
My last FTP ramp test came out at 230. This weekend during my CX race that lasted 58 minutes my NP was 260.
What’s the relationship between the two? Or is there none? I’d have thought they should be close…
It has been a while since I tested though.

Different power source btw but both external real power, not trainer power - they’re close having tested both.


#2

I would say that most often a sprinter kind of rider can achieve a bigger difference between the two than a more TT gifted one. And a CX race could be (often, depending of tec skill level) the kind of effort that make such a difference noticeable.


#3

There are a few things to be considered here:

Normally an Intensity Factor (IF = NP/FTP) of greater than 1 for an hour long effort would mean that your FTP needs to be increased.

(NP is designed to give an equivalent toll to that of a constant power effort, even when the effort is on and off, as it is in a CX race: power above FTP is given more weight that that below.)

You used two different power meters, so that could be the cause.

You did the ramp test on the road. That’s far from ideal but may be ok depending on how closely you managed to match the steps.

Mike


#4

I think the advice (from Coggan?) is anything over 1.05 for about an hour suggests your FTP could be set low and should prompt a retest.

Edit: It’s normal to see higher than that I’ve been 1.1+ in hilly crits. 260/230 is very high though


#5

Yeah IF was 1.13.

I’ll just retest I think and see if anything changes.

Thanks folks!


#6

Also consider the inside vs outside variable. Despite my large effort to equalize them, I can still perform better outside.

What is your experience?


#7

Any thoughts on this FTP vs NP relationship question I have?
Recently I ramp tested and result was FTP 279. Could I ride NP279 for 1hr Ride? I don’t feel so confident I would be able to do it based on recent outdoor Ride results and RPE, HR experienced during those rides.

Is it;
A) I just need to find the right combination of strength areas and recovery timing/zone to achieve it?

B) FTP does not equal 1hr NP potential

C). Ramp test will result in higher FTP for someone with my current power and activity type profile

For example I can ride 60% FTP and do short (less than minute) sprint several times through out the ride @ 200-500%ftp but I am terrible on 5-20min sustained power.
Most of my rides are 40-80 mile road/gravel or 15-50 mile MTB XC terrain

D). Ramp test is not a good way to measure FTP to reference against target IRL NP for type of rides that require sustained power. For example, Compared to 20min FTP test

E) vary training focus to fit the Ride profile to modify my power and activity type profile

E) HTFU - try harder it’s in me somewhere

I think we all want to realize indoor gains outside.
You thoughts are appreciated.


#8

CX race is a very different type of effort to a ramp or 20 min FTP test. There won’t be a steady effort in the CX race, rather lots of short very intense efforts. I would’t take too much from it. If youre traing sessions feel too light, retest.


#9

Anecdotally, most people cannot ride at their FTP for an hour unless they have trained for it (say an hour record). Its effectively a flawed description but is still effective as a marker to base your training around.


#10

True but when it come to NP what is achievable (ie IF) is very dependent on the type of effort. In a crit for example it’s quite possible to have NP for an hour higher than FTP.


#11

If you look up 7 deadly sins by Dr. Coggan, you’ll see that he does say that NP from a hard hour race can be used to determining FTP:

"the seven deadly sins…er, ways of determining your functional threshold power (roughly in order of increasing certainty):

  1. from inspection of a ride file.
  2. from power distribution profile from multiple rides.
  3. from blood lactate measurements (better or worse, depending on how it is done).
  4. based on normalized power from a hard ~1 h race.
  5. using critical power testing and analysis.
  6. from the power that you can routinely generate during long intervals done in training.
  7. from the average power during a ~1 h TT (the best predictor of performance is performance itself)."

#12

Link for the info above.
https://wattmatters.blog/home/2008/05/the-seven-deadly-sins.html?format=amp


#13

Wow, thanks for the great responses.
So based on the responses and available studies i’m leaning towards below conclusion

FTP = 1hr NP potential(roughly) if there is capacity to achieve IF 1.0

So what are potential causes for not being able to achieve IF 1.0 i’m Sure this is ride profile dependent, but are there some generalized known causes?


#14

a more recent post, directly from Dr. Coggan:

I skimmed the wattmatters.blog and prefer Dr. Coggan’s more recent version (for those that don’t have the book).