Did you use a custom workout on TR to follow (mind linking if you did?) or did you perform this elsewhere?
I used the workout created by alex, but went a bit freestyle with the intensity after the initial 10minutes
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I’m planning on doing your baseline test and currently am training with an FTP of 280w and entering the 5th week of a block. I suspect my true FTP is around 290-295w. I’ll be conservative and say 290w. Which is what number I’ll target during my test.
How would you extrapolate FTP if my time-to-exhaustion is only 30 min? Would that be long enough to be a reliable indicator of what my FTP is (seems like it wouldn’t, 30 min /= 60 min) or would I need to really hold 290w for closer to 45-60min to establish that as my true FTP?
Extrapolating FTP and TTE from shorter durations is something that the 20 minute test tries to accomplish, and cannot accomplish. I find training history and current volume relates highly to TTE, but otherwise it’s impossible to predict without properly doing a long test. TTE is incredibly valuable information in itself, and should not be overlooked.
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Thanks, Kolie. So I took a stab at your baseline test this morning.
Link to my ride: Kolie Moore’s FTP test protocol by Anthony Lane
I was going back and forth between the test and doing 4x10 over/unders which would have been a 95 TSS ride. I said, fuck it and opted to do the test as I’m having surgery on Friday and will be off the bike for at least 3 weeks ( 
out fitness) and this is my last time to see where things are at fitness-wise.
I haven’t done a TTE test before so my goal was to ride slightly above the FTP (280w) I’ve been training at and make small adjustments as the test went on. Generally, I tried to hit a 285-290w NP for the first 20 min block, knowing that a negative split would set me up nicely for the last 20-25 minutes.
I rode this fasted since 7:30pm the night prior–which is typically how I train in the early mornings. Was a bit worried about that, but felt like it was better than coming into it all carb-loaded up. I really only started to feel fatigued at around the 60 min mark. The last 10 min were tough, but not crazy. I was actually quite surprised at how disconnected my legs felt with where my heart rate was. I was expecting to have a lot more lactate burn and a higher rate of respiration given I was at 90% or greater of HRM for most of the final 15 min.
Definitely a good test. I will be incorporating this into my FTP testing for future blocks. Thanks!
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Retested this week on the road bike, rather than the TT set-up, to get a sense of where I am with each. Having never actually ridden hard for more than 30mins on the road bike since getting a power meter, managed to set a lot of all-time power PRs.
Great thing about the test is the confidence it gives you: I know I can ride at 320-325w while in control for 50+ minutes. Could have gone longer at that range without ramping up at the end - think my TTE on the road bike is pretty good, so will try to hold 60+ mins next time round.
The test also clarifies what I feel is the main gap I need to close between TT and road: not so much FTP wattage, but TTE(?) For 20-30 minutes or so, I feel pretty much the same on TT bike riding only 5-10w lower: breathing controlled, effort sustainable. Exhaustion though, I feel, comes on much earlier and much more rapidly.
Is this because I’m still actually riding above FTP, or is because I just have a much shorter TTE on the TT bike? The latter at least makes sense (less familiar muscle recruitment, compromising position, etc.). Is this a difference you’d commonly see @empiricalcycling?
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Your experience aligns pretty well with what I see for road vs TT bike FTP, and doesn’t sound like you were over it for the TT bike test.
Since you’re using somewhat different bits of muscle on the TT bike, it’s less trained. Normally I see 10-20w lower FTP with a shorter TTE. Almost across the board my athletes, except one, hate their TT bikes and never spend enough time on them to really get that specific TTE out very long. Which can be a problem long term since that means a day on the TT bike can generate a large amount of fatigue that borks the next couple days of riding.
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Which can be a problem long term since that means a day on the TT bike can generate a large amount of fatigue that borks the next couple days of riding.
Oh boy this rings true - I can complete near equivalent sessions on road/TT bike, but the fatigue felt in following few days from the latter is so much greater. Doing a 20 minute effort for a 10 mile TT absolutely wipes me out, but I could do some hard VO2 intervals today the day after 50 mins at FTP on the road bike. Good to know this is pretty widespread!
No way around it for me - just got to work on that TTE on the TT bike, given I’m focusing on 50 min+ events. Thanks so much - the general framework of your testing has given me the concepts/self-knowledge to make more exact sense of what I’d had a rough idea of previously.
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Today I have attempted Kolie Moore’s test protocol and I wanted to write about the experience from completely cycling novice.
I have been riding a bike and training with TR since 4 months, so I do not have any aerobic base from previous years. I have finished SSB I and II LV and then 5 weeks focused on sustainable power (by my own experiments with workouts).
The test has looked intimidating and has exceed my TTE (33 min - so extremely poor) by WKO. Previously I have been doing only ramp tests but I wanted to challenge myself:) Especially that according to wko I have quite good 5 min power and I was afraid it could influencing my ramp tests, especially that sustainable workouts with my new ftp were quite challenging.
The test was done on @alexgold123 workout (thank you). It was hard and challenging but after completing it I feel less exhausted than after a ramp test. I probably could last 3-4 minutes more during the ramp, if we are talking about true exhaustion. What is important to me is that now I feel more confident about new ftp and for me this tests leaves me with stronger feeling of an accomplishment than ramp test.
So even noob cyclist you can test this way. I am sure that this would be horrible first test, but after some riding this can be used without any fear. Do not get me wrong - ramp test has it purpoise as a first assessment when you do not have any idea where you are or how your body behaves. I am sure that I could not finish this test during base phase. But when you are more conscious and starting to understand your body this is a quite good way to find your new ftp.
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Finally gave it a go today. Lasted 20 minutes into the test interval. I may have over estimated a few watts but my head is just not where it needs to be to push myself right now. Tough to get properly motivated -winter blues, I think. Maybe I can amp myself up to give it another go tomorrow, I’d really like to push into the 35 minute (test time) range to feel justified in my current ftp.
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I’ve done this test twice now, and one thing I really like about it is that since you are riding for a good portion of the duration at or very near your FTP, it helps give me a good feel of what riding steadily at FTP is like. Quite frankly I found this easier/more tolerable than I expected it to be, at least until about 75% of the way through the test.
This ‘riding at FTP’ feeling is something that I don’t think the normal TR plans/tests do a good job of fostering (at least for me they haven’t) If the ramp test isn’t accurate for you (ie you are on one of the edges of the bell curve), using that FTP number will give you a skewed perspective of what riding at your FTP is.
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not unless you’ve done the 40K TT specialty plan. You know I’m on the windy side of town, our Wed night club ride has been good practice doing up to 40 minutes at threshold (or back off and do it as sweet spot). p.s. use those parts in a rocker plate yet?
that is one plan I haven’t done. I have not yet used the parts, but plan to soon. A friend of mine might be interested in my kickr even with the issues, so he’ll get the rocker with the kickr.
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Curious if you are doing this protocol in Erg on the trainer? Today I rode up canal toward Folsom but was short on time, so only managed about 15-min holding threshold. Its 6 miles from Jackson Hwy to White Rock, I figure 3-4 times would make for a nice test. I’ve only done Merckx class 10 mile TT on that part of the canal and figure that is roughly the baseline test. From my house its a good 40 minute warmup to the canal.
I do it in erg mode. This keeps the effort very steady, and I ca easily tweak it up or down a few percent during the ride. by the time I get late in the workout I’ve settled on the power so changing it when I’m at the limit near the end isn’t an issue.
I pretty much exclusively use erg mode.
Yep - I think the use of over-unders as the hard interval session a lot of weeks might not always be beneficial (at least if not used correctly). I was able to complete lots of them at 10w higher than my actual FTP (viewed retrospectively), which: i) meant I rarely got experience of riding more than 15mins at FTP, which is the max length of most O/U blocks, and ii) left me properly empty for a few days afterwards.
Interested in what @empiricalcycling’s view is on over-unders (TR style)? In the podcast you’ve talked about interspersing threshold with 15 seconds all out, but what do you think is the relative worth of the TR style overunders, which have more sustained periods at 105-110% of FTP? My guess (let’s see if I’m learning…) might be that the gain you get from these is outweighed by how fatiguing they are - i.e. you’d get more out of riding longer at FTP, than slightly above it for less? 3x20 @ FTP > 5x12 O/U? Insofar as: i) you get more time working at threshold, for longer, and ii) you’re probably able to do more the following day(s)
(aware this is basically free coaching, so I’ll be putting some $$ in the podcast kitty!)
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Over-Unders have a singular and specific function:
The primary objective of over-unders is to increase your ability to tolerate and utilize the byproducts that accompany riding above your FTP
You utilise O/U intervals to train your body how to better deal with lactate. Period. If you want a Threshold workout, do NOT do an O/U workout. Yes, O/U are in the Threshold range, but that’s not why you do them. The “gain” is not focused on watt production but physiological processes. Just like the reason you do VO2max intervals is not to train your 3min power but to train your body to use more oxygen.
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FWIW… several years ago I had a coach who loved to prescribed O/U workouts but in ten minute bouts with five min rest periods. Once I could bang those out and he didn’t change it up, I took over my programming and would link the 10 min bouts together into 20, 30 and then 40 min blocks.
Since very few bike races (or rides) happen in 10 min segments with full recovery periods, have always felt doing longer bouts when possible and within good programming made sense. I am a huge fan of TTE and durability. That is harder to measure and requires more effort from the athlete but feel it pays off. Also worth paying attention to all parts of the power curve not just CP20 (which is what most programs are actually training you for IMO).
All canned programming falls into the “good for the middle of the curve” problem. When you advance your training to the point where the offered times and segments no longer provide the right stimulus and adaptations then its time to go off piste and make it better.
@empiricalcycling - Just a note that I’m enjoying your take on things and your podcast. Thanks for participating here!!
-Mark
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Let’s look at SSB-2 low-volume to illustrate as it does have threshold work:
Week 1 the 95-99% threshold work is on Saturday, then moves to Thursday for remaining weeks. It ends with Lamarck which is 4x10 at FTP with 2 minute rest between intervals.
My point in the context of this thread, there are no long threshold intervals like this:
until you get to 40K TT specialty plan.
If you were inclined to do longer threshold intervals using SSB-2 plan, to develop a better feel for riding at threshold (and other reasons), the easy way on a smart trainer is to turn off Erg and ride thru the rest intervals. Or take it outside and do it on the road.
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Thanks - do get this point. As with all of this, it shows that different are approaches are rarely “right” or “wrong”, but often just better at accomplishing different things. Likewise, there’s always the issue of following protocols incorrectly (e.g. doing over unders “too hard”), which is separate question.
Should probably be more specific: if your primary focus is to raise your power at MLSS, and your TTE, then might there be some rationale for prioritising longer threshold work - especially if you find you can get more work done if O/Us particularly wipe you out?
If your target events are long TTs, which won’t have any long periods spent over FTP, then there’s less priority to be accorded to an ability to cope with the physiological processes associated with riding over FTP. If you’re racing road races with lots of hard efforts, though, there’d seem to be more reason to prioritise O/Us.
Aware it remains complex because obviously being over or under FTP isn’t a neat distinction, there’s still anaerobic work being done below or at it, etc.)
Rarely one way to skin a cat and a lot depends on the individual and their specific goals. Definitely don’t mean to imply that O/Us are “wrong” - more wondering whether there might be case to de-prioritise them if you’re chasing, above all else, an increase in (TTE@) FTP.
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