Polarized Training Discussion (Fast Talk podcast & Flo Cycling podcast)

no worries its happened to me many times :smile:

Just gonna drop this here because it is exactly how I feel about this topic:


I know theres a few forums of polarized going but worth reposting this one from a tweet earlier today…someone asks if maximal aerobic power is ~6min power, to which Stephen replies: “The calculated MAP from a ramped incremental power test and VO2 measurements should approximate 6min power pretty well (or vice versa)”

File under fwiw.


That’s crazy! During summer I had some actual 40’ all-out efforts to compare my intervals to and I think those 4x8 and 4x4 prescriptions in terms of % of 40’ TT power would have been impossible to fulfill (maybe 4x8 with a taper beforehand :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:).
I will stick to my 4x8’ (R 2’) at 105% FTP :woman_shrugging:

Yep…40min TT time for me is probably my FTP number. 4x8 with 2 mins recovery makes me feel ill thinking about it

I was doing my 4x8s, 5x7s and 5x8s at 102% with 2 min. recovery. My Max HR% seemed to agree with this and the workout didn’t crush me. On Thursday I did Budawang+5 and that’s 5x9 at 102%. Again it seemed to be just about the right effort for me. But the recoveries are 5 min. and that makes a difference both physically and mentally. I’m not sure how the longer recoveries affect the workout, probably a little less time at optimal HR.

I thought the same thing before doing a bunch of sessions of them last year. But (big but) if your FTP is set right, 4x8’s are def doable. The key for me was dividing them up into 2-min chunks. I just had to get up to 6 min’s and then it was all downhill. I’d take 3 min’s recovery, just to make sure I could get the work done.

The above refers to % of 40’ TT power and I did do 40’ all-out tests.

Red lake +8, 5x6min at 108% with 4mins recovery will do for me.

a little over a week ago I did a no-warmup hour of power at 330w

no way I could hold 120% – 400w – for 4min right now – I did my first 3-5min effort fartlek ride of the year yesterday, and I saw record HRs – I hit 176, which I haven’t seen since 1997 – for hard chunks averaging 380w. The engine was redlined but the watts weren’t going to go any higher, which is actually consistent with what I see for the first two weeks of intervals each year.

After three or four weeks, I’m doing them at 400+, but in the transition from base miles+once a week HoP to really hard stuff, I just have to go as hard as I can and let the watts take care of themselves.

All the guys in Seiler’s studies were self-pacing on RPE.

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Yes but still interesting to know what their efforts correspond to in terms of %FTP (or as in the table above, %CP40).

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I noticed that tweet and responded in there as well.

Basically though if you look at MAP, those guys only held 73% of 6 minute power for a 40 min TT. That is lower than what I was doing in SSB1 for Eclipse (3x20 min). I question how well trained these subjects were. Doing 4 minute repeats of 90% of your 6 minute max sounds a lot more realistic.

TR sets FTP closer to 80% of MAP, which is what the 4x8min intervals were. The 4x8’s are just faster than threshold. I would think that Lamarck probably has the same physiological affect.

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Read the asterix note in the tweet. Seiler is using a very specific definition of MAP which, best I can tell, excludes any anaerobic component. So MAP in the table is likely to be quite a bit lower than 6 minute power (which likely has a significant anaerobic component for many riders).

Wondering if he meant 40k TT power and not 40 min. He’s been a big proponent for althe hour of power so using 40 mins seems like an odd choice

Even if you have a higher anaerobic contribution, maximal aerobic power is still your power at your highest o2 intake. As power demands go up intake no longer increases.

For the ramp test, map was around 90% of ppo, so these guys 40 min tt power was 66% of their ramp ppo. I know the ramp verification thread had only about 50% success but were talking like 25 watts less than the tr ramp estimated ftp.

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How do you guys build polarized training plan? Easiest part is to do the low intensity, but how do i choose the high intensity sessions? And what is the bottom of “high” intensity; is it FTP/60min power? Should i choose one kind of sessions and just do those or mix them every week?

I’m no polarized expert. I expert they will be along shortly. According to Chad McNeese’s excellent spreadsheet, zone 3 begin around 100% of ftp.

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You should listen to the Fast Talk podcast where Seiler talks about the intervals that he has studied. They are pretty simple. 4min, 8min, or 16 minute all out. They also talk about accumulating time in zone. Maybe you start off with 3x4min, and then increase a little bit week by week.

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“Full Models” tab:

That is a summary of what I got from the various podcast episode with Dr. Seiler. It may well have errors and some of the relationships between points they discussed (HR vs Power vs VO2 Max) all got fuzzy at different times. Take it as a rough guide at best. Low Intensity should be pretty easy up to the longer efforts. High Intensity should be above Threshold in most cases (well above in some shorter efforts).

These three are linked in the “TM Refs” section of the sheet linked above.

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I’m just beginning my polarized plan from tomorrow after doing SS for the last few months. I’m using “Garfield” as my z3 workouts to start with.