Polarized Training Discussion (Fast Talk podcast & Flo Cycling podcast)

Helpful to always bring it back to this level - there’s so much in the nuance for this (or any training method) but I think the high level message here totally resonates with me.

Thoughts on how to “make the shorter ride function like a longer one”? They are all on the trainer (so no coasting), and I do them all fasted to encourage fat adaptation, anything else you would suggest based on your research / personal trial?

1 Like

Sounds like you have a solid start for maximizing the long days.


Fair warning, I want you to get 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions on this, because I am not sure this is a good idea or if I even have the right thoughts on it.

About the only thing I think that could be done to improve them MIGHT be to try and start the long rides “depleated” rather than just fasted. I hesitate to really mention it because I am not sure that it is a useful application of the idea, let alone the best way to apply it.

But in short, it might be like doing a workout the night before, and deliberately under-fueling to leave your body in a “low” state of glycogen. Then wake up and start the long ride depleted of those stores which might lead to the stress that pulls the other muscle fibers into the mix.

It’s interesting looking at the Pros and for the reasons you give there may well be not a great deal to learn from their riding.

As you say cyclists race a lot generally and thus their riding is dictated by that. They have traditionally raced themselves into form rather than training into races although I would imagine that this is less true now than it was 20/30 years ago, the ultimate in specificity.

If they are either racing, recovering from racing, or doing specific race prep, stage or climb recces it’s a difficult assumption to make that the are training anywhere near optimally. If we assume that by the self selective nature of pro sport that they are the best at what they do and are probably good responders to training maybe whatever they did they would improve/maintain fitness.

If the Pro teams didn’t have to keep the sponsorship money rolling in by being seen in every race and had purely a six month build to train for the Giro, TdF or Vuelta would we see something different?

Thoughts?

I’ve been traveling a lot recently, and am running into similar issues on having short training windows to train each day.
Following a Polarized approach makes it challenging to get a lot of TSS - the scores are just so low! (But feel harder to me than what TSS alone would suggest).
I think doing fasted rides, and rides back to back ie evening then following morning, may help improve the adaptations - but I don’t have evidence for this, just seems to make logical sense to 1. Improve fat metabolism and 2. Improve endurance of slow twitch muscles.

1 Like

I think you’re struggling for an answer because I’m not sure there is one sadly. My gut feeling around depletion is that it might have some merit, however these longer rides are probably the ones you want to fuel properly, as much for recovery as for performance.

The only answer that I think can work is by using the trainer for longer rides where you can squeeze a 6 hour outdoor ride into 4 hours on the trainer.

My most hated session of the week is generally my long run, it’s the hardest during the week especially nearing a race when I’m maxing out around 2 1/2 hours. I’ve given it a lot of thought to find ways around it but if the goal of a long workout is endurance the adaptions you want will be happening at the end of the workout.

If I up my long run by 15 minutes per week, really it’s the extra 15 minutes at the end that I didn’t do last week that is the money shot and I guess the same is true on the bike. If I could find a way to get those extra 15 minutes without needing the previous 2 hours I’d be all over it!!

You can tinker around the edges through possibly manipulating nutrition, riding twice a day, riding already fatigued and all of these might be worthwhile and provide extra benefits over not doing them. If those are the only options available then thats probably worth a shot. However I’m not sure there’s a genuine replacement for a long session.

2 Likes

I would say teams around Froome and Dumolin build exclusively towards Giro and/or TdF. There are a few riders from Team Sunweb who are very open on Strava (Laurens ten Dam, Chad Haga). I don’t see anything different there.

With regards to Team Sky one can refer to Wiggins autobiography or all the other pieces of information that are out there. Of course, you can never be sure with Team Sky, perhaps they really train polarized and just say they train differently. In order to confuse/distract/mislead the competition (not serious here but there are so many “strong” opinions on Sky …).

They spend half the year on Mount Teide and what do they do? Lots of SST climbing with surges above the threshold. Lots of this. What was also interesting to see was the massive base endurance block by Froome this January. The volume was massive. And probably quite strenuous when he really followed this “low” paradigm.

What I see is that all the pros train according to the specificity principle. Which is in stark contrast with the “polarized camp” claim that you shouldn’t train at race pace. And they always refer to this one study on elite Portugese (I believe) marathon runners. Mmmmm. I’d be more interested in how Kenyans train. Well, we actually know quite a bit about them. Lots of race pace traininig. This is even mentioned in one of the Seiler reviews.

I was able to get a 3 hour ride in this morning, so reasonable comparison to my 2 hr ride yesterday (with a few caveats):

Friday was my hard day (Rattlesnake) and my Saturday ride was 24 hours later, performed fasted. Really struggled at the end of the 2 hours of ~65% - 70% FTP riding. Today was 3 hours of the same intensity, with 400 kCal of oatmeal before the ride, felt much stronger throughout.

So part of it is certainly the residual stress from Friday, but certainly the fueling also helped me get through it. So subjectively the recovered 3hr fueled ride was easier, but obviously no real way to actually measure the real goal, the physiological response to the training.

1 Like

I totally agree with that logic - so many individual circumstances I worry that trying to be too evidenced-based just ends up with “analysis paralysis”, I’m also basically just trying to work down the logical / personal constraints path to see what works.

1 Like

I’m mostly focusing on the recovery aspect through quality fueling post-workout, such that I’m using slower burning fuel during the workout and then topping off the carbs I did burn in the session. Thoughts?

I think that’s probably right, that at the end of the day the best option is to just go long, and then given practical constraints trying to fit in the extra tinkering around the edges to improve given the constraints I do have.

1 Like

On a recent Pace-Line podcast #131, they talk about the same thing. The discussion starts at minute 24 into the podcast.

1 Like

As long as you’re mindful about recovery and post workout fuelling you should be fine.

With regard to all of this and your time restraints keep in mind that at a very base level your goal (I presume like mine!) is to become a better cyclist. What ‘better cyclist’ means will be informed by the event or goals you are training for.

Any training methodology you choose should be towards this aim whether in the short or long term. All approaches can work especially for those of us for whom it’s not a full time job, and different approaches can suit us at different points in our training and racing cycles throughout seasons and years. Sometimes you might need to lift the ceiling, sometimes the roof.

You could accept the fact that you aren’t going to get any long endurance rides in in this training block and introduce them later in the training cycle if that fits with your overall plans?

I know I’m saying this in the context of a thread about polarised training but an effective way of getting a long ride in to a time restricted programme is to make it harder but that of course would go against the polarised ethos :wink:

3 Likes

This all makes sense - thanks for that reminder to keep it in context, especially the below section. I certainly can get lost in the academic debates, but always important to remember the actual goal, at least for me that’s performance improvement / race results.

1 Like

I’m following this thread with great interest. A few days ago I stumbled upon 2 joel filliol podcast episodes from 2015, where polarized training is discussed or mentioned.

In the first linked episode they discuss polarized training (starting at 00:24:15).

In the second episode he interviews Louis Delahaije (performance manager at world tour team Lotto Jumbo). Louis mentions that they use polarized training in the Lotto Jumbo team (starting at 1:16:30), which proves that some pro’s really use this training concept.

https://joelfilliol.com/podcast/2015/11/7/real-coaching-podcast-3-polarized-training

https://joelfilliol.com/podcast/2015/12/17/louis-delahaije-lotto-jumbo-cycling-performance-manager

3 Likes

I notice a different ‘kind’ of DOMS from long 3-4hr low intensity rides vs 60-90 minute blasts with some hard efforts.

Difficult to describe the difference other than ‘duller’, if that makes sense? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

2 Likes

I’d say that’s about right. It feels like pure fatigue and just being spent.

I’m in similar boat today. Almost 4 hours outside yesterday and 2hrs 45mins on the trainer today. All endurance pace and the legs are very tired. Mildly tender to the touch as well.

1 Like

@BennyC and @mcneese.chad myself and any athletes I work with describe anything long (over four hours) in pretty much the same way. Dull, even “achey”, or just plain dead in the legs. Extensive aerobic activity done well will typically have that sensation and proof positive that those red fibres have been stimulated to a point of fatigue and will reap the benefits😉 It definitely is a different feeling than the typical DOMS.

1 Like

This is an interesting interview with an age-group athlete who allegedly achieved a 421W 20 min time trial after switching to polarised training:

421W? Bonkers.

How did they do it? I’m going to replicate their programme to the letter.

With that power, I could win every single race I did this year, by doing a breakaway from the start line.

3 Likes

Great discussion and thanks for digging so deep into this @mcneese.chad. I think it’s important to use both HR and power but initially I think Trainerroad users’ best bet is to use the Ramp Test and HR. Using his formula from the FLO Cycling podcast I think will get you the values you need and it’s not inconsistent at all, IMHO.

I calculated mine and I got 141 bpm at the ~LT1 end and 174-183 bpm at the ~LT2 end of things. And it’s pretty much spot on when I get my training power targets from the TR ramp test FTP calculation.

Of course, these numbers are approximations unless you are using blood lactate values and tracking the actual inflection points for LT1/LT2. But for most of us it’s close enough.

Also, I would love to hear from anyone who has done a 4 hour TR workout at in the Seiler z1 model. I’ve done 4-5 hours outside keeping HR below that LT1 value and my legs are murdered by the end.

1 Like

@gibbonraver I did Vogelsang 2 and 3 weeks ago all in Z1 POL.

I have one mentioned in my other POL thread already. I have another one planned for this Sunday as well. They are some real work despite the low power.

1 Like