Polarized Training Discussion (Fast Talk podcast & Flo Cycling podcast)

This may be the world’s longest thread!

Ok, I completely skimmed this post. I’m Chris Thornham, the owner of FLO Cycling and the guy who interviewed Dr. Seiler on the Faster podcast by FLO. A few things I’d like to make clear.

  • I don’t want people to get the impression that we/I think threshold training does not work! As Nate said, there are many ways to get fit and a polarized model is simply one approach.
  • I love the guys at TR—I consider them all friends—and I’m in no way saying what they do doesn’t work or is less valuable than a polarized model.
  • I’ve had great success with polarized training, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t have had success with a threshold model.

For those more interested in what I’ve done, here is some info based on our podcast and a few more private conversations with Dr. Seiler.

I started riding again on May 14, 2018, after a long layoff—4+ years of little to no training. I estimated my returning FTP as 250W and have an actual test on May 28th of 262W. I ramp up pretty quickly in the beginning so I estimated 250W. On November 2, 2018, 5.5 months later, I had an FTP of 300W. All FTP tests were done with a ramp test. So that’s a 40-50 watt jump in FTP. A lot of those are easy “returning to training” watts. I’m 69-70kg for the record.

Here’s what my training looked like:

I spent the first 14 weeks strictly in Z1 totaling roughly 85 hours. Nothing else. I had a long layoff from cycling and a long injury history so I wanted a slow introduction to give the musculoskeletal system time to get used to cycling again. Even on my outdoor MTB rides, I climbed hills at 2mph or lower to keep my HR low. There were short moments were I snuck above 130, but when I did I brought my HR back below LT1 as soon as possible. I was VERY strict with this.

After the first 14 weeks, I introduced Z3 work, but not 10% right away. More like 5% or less. I’m still not at 10%.

My current training totals look like this:

  • Total Training Time Including 14 week intro phase: 158 hours
  • Total Time in Z1: 151 hours (96%)
  • Total Time in Z3: 7 hours (4%)

My experience with Z3 workouts is as follows.

  • Z3 work is done in intervals of 4, 8, or 16 minutes with 2 minutes of recovery.
  • Intensities are between 102% and 110% of FTP. I did some math to figure this out but it’s not an exact science. I was trying to convert %HRMax and %VO2Max to Power and this is what I came up with.
  • Maybe I’m still building mental toughness but I find right after an FTP test, 4-minute intervals at 102% of FTP are really hard.
  • At the end of an 8-week training block, as fitness increases, the intervals become a lot easier allowing you to extend the interval length to 8 or 16 minutes. This, of course, is all based on the 102-110% of FTP numbering.

I hope this helps a bit! If anyone has questions, let me know.

And, if I didn’t make it clear enough already, the guys at TR are great. I recommend their product, and training programs all of the time, and I’m not on the payroll. I just know a good product when I see it.

Chris
FLO Cycling

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Great stuff, @christhornham. Thanks for the detail. I need to reread and digest it a bit, but there looks to be some interesting stuff in here.

@mcneese.chad glad to help!

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only a 63 minute read, not time to call Guinness Book of Records yet :wink:

thanks for dropping in!! Curious if you lab tested lactate to establish HR for Z1, or if you just estimated?

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  1. Is it really supposed to say that 4 min @ 102 % is hard. How do you then cope with 16 min?

  2. After reading your post I’d guess 4 min @ 110%, 16 min @ 102 % and 8 min @ something between?

  3. No intervals > 110%? Why?

Best regards
Joel

Yes, I bought a lactate plus meter and ran the test. You can see my results here: Chris Thornham Blood Lactate 05/26/18 - Google Sheets

My power numbers have changed since then, but HR numbers are likely similar. I’ll be retesting at UNLV likley in the next few months.

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Chris,

Thanks for sharing, to my eyes it looks like HR of 127 and above was the breaking point where lactate starts climbing.

Brian

edit: or even more conservatively at 114bpm, but there is such a slight rise from 114 to 126 that I’m not sure. And of course I’m not an exercise physiologist…

@christhornham while you’re here… any updates on FLO’s gravel wheelset?? :grin:

@trailJoel

  1. I know 4 min @ 102% shouldn’t be hard, but personally I’ve found it to be challenging. Perhaps it’s because of the nature of the ramp test FTP estimate, or I’m not mentally there after years off of the bike. I can tell you I’m hitting some really high heart rates during those efforts though.

  2. That was my original thought as well, but in practice, it hasn’t worked out that way for me.

  3. You certainly could, but Dr. Seiler says the best gains from his studies happen when intervals result in HRs between 87 and 92% of HRMax. So 4-minute intervals are in the 92% range, 8-minute intervals are in the 90% range, and 16-minute intervals are in the 87% range. In my experience, you don’t need efforts over 110% of FTP to hit those target HRs. I’ll add that I tried a 6 x 8 session right after an FTP test last week. I hit ~94% of HRMax on the third 8-minute interval and completely crapped out after that.

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Seiler guessed around 129, so I’d guess your 127 estimate is right. I’d love for it to be 114—because I could go a lot easier—but riding outside would be tough!

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They are definitely cooking. No dates set yet, but they are on the way. Hoping first or second quarter '19.

Ha ha, especially on the mountain bike LOL. Interestingly the 127 HR puts your power at 180W, so it seems you could use ceiling of 180W provided that HR doesn’t drift up.

I’ve noticed that power can change on a day to day basis, so I always use HR. I’ve noticed over time that my power at LT1 HR is going up though. I averaged 200W for over an hour at a 125HR last week.

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Thanks for chiming in, and those are awesome numbers! The Google Sheet says you did the lactate test on May 26, 2018, so you did the lactate test and the FTP test at effectively the same time? And per the podcast (and looking at the spreadsheet), your LT2 tested to be around 220W, with a ramp test FTP of 262W… right?

In other words, had you done sweet spot intervals (85+% of FTP, or 223+W), those intervals would all have been above LT2, not in Seiler’s zone 2. Continuing along, when you say intervals at 102-110% of FTP, is that based on the ramp test FTP, the lactate threshold test?

Everybody is different, my ftp right now is a smidge lower than your 250 at time of test. I’ve been able to do long rides at 165-170W with flat HR. My “all day climbing” HR is 135, and I use 135 as my target for long flat rides around Sacramento or on the 20 mile ride back home after a tough group ride in Folsom.

Yes the lacate test was done on May 26, 2018. You can see it in TR here: Log In to TrainerRoad

The first Ramp test was done at UNLV in a lab during a VO2Max study. That was May 28, 2018. The V02Max test protocol is pretty much identical to the TR Ramp test, so I used that as my FTP test.

My LT2 power was 220W and my FTP was 262W. So had I done 85% efforts then yes, those would have been out of my Z2, using power as the measure of intensity. That said, 85% efforts aren’t where the polarized method wants you during Z3 work. 102-110% of FTP appears to be a better calculation–but remember this is still an estimate. Measuring a % of HRMax might be a better way to define the intensity but, pacing intervals with HR is tough because of lag.

Finally, the 102-110% is based on my Ramp Test FTP results.

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That’s great! If I had to define the top of Z1 by feel, it’s the intensity where you first feel the need to take an extra, or deeper breath of air.

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Chris,

Really appreciate you dropping in and sharing, engineers and TR cyclists love data! Wish I had more to share back. Feeling inspired now to schedule a lactate test sometime next year with one of our local training companies, to test what I think I know to what is really going on.

Brian

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Glad to contribute. Looking forward to hearing your results.

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Great stuff @christhornham. Thanks for sharing. Keep up the great podcast, makes my commute fly by.

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