Base VO2max on an 5-6 min max interval?
@markbrouns Not sure I follow your question. I’m making a distinction (perhaps academic) between peak power on the road and what I would see for short durations (less than 5 mins) in a field test like 4DP (which would be higher). I was just making the point that just like we have a field test for FTP (ramp, 20 min x .95, etc), I think a field test for determining short power would be valuable. Many ppl respond to that by saying just take your max/peak in races or find a hill or whatever.
If I want to base intervals and zones on something, I’d rather base them on max efforts from a test of those power durations rather than 1) %FTP or 2) an arbitrary 1 min effort at some point in the past on the road that may or may not still be valid and is likely low even if it’s recent.
So 30 sec, 1 min, then 5 min power to drive anaerobic and VO2 intervals (which I think is your question). Not sure about 10 min but once you get toward 20min power you’re close to threshold power.
Sounds like they’ve got something in the works. More than likely just using workout performance itself, which would be cool.
That was long. Sorry 
My answer was a little short 
What I meant was: they better use a percentage (90%) of the 5 min max effort. This is also an estimation. If youre power profile is a typical pursuiter (high 1 minute power and low sprint power), 5 minutes is Too short…
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I think your short power and long power should be tested but on different days when fully fit , my FTP is not high enough for sprints and 80% of my 5 min MAP is to high for long efforts , I think we need multiple FTP’s to get the maximum out of your training.
Rather than do a 4DP Test you’d be better off taking your best efforts from the last 3 months training
Good call. I think I will do that at the end of this Build block and see where I am. Thank you for the tip!
I tested SF right before TR (but did not do a 4DP test). The main things that have made me stick with TR are:
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Training plans: TR has very well laid out plans (base, build, specialty), with clear objectives and clear specialization, that allow users to build their own programs.
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Calendar: SF relies on Training Peaks or Final Surge to manage the calendar, and that integration is just a PITA. TR’s calendar is great - an in-app version, plus a web-based one for full control. No shifting between apps, and TSS projections are included.
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Variety of workouts, including variants: this is golden. You can substitute a more or less demanding version of what you had planned, down to the last moment before you start your session.
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Support and community: Podcasts, this forum, on-screen guidance in workouts - everything here is very professionnal.
The one thing that SF has that could help TR is the ability to tailor training on multiple levels. Regardless of whether a 4DP test is a good one or not, many riders need to adjust VO2Max effort levels up or down, which in TR currently can only be done by either introducing a bias in your FTP, or in a given session’s load level.
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If you’re looking for your absolute maximum values, I’d agree. However, the 4DP test is designed to be a snapshot of your abilities at a given time, taking into account the effect that the consecutive maximal efforts have on each other. Remember, it’s a way to estimate repeatable power in each of these four zones for use in workouts - not a way of testing what you maximum is.
Take, for instance, the 20 minute portion of the test - because it is preceded by two maximal Neuromuscular efforts and a maximal 5 minute VO2max effort, FTP is judged to be the average power that can be held for that 20 minutes, rather than the traditional 95% of the average.
Mike
Regarding colours, if this hasn’t already been suggested, I would like to see different colours on the TSS table to differentiate between planned versus completed workouts.
I use a dual screen set up. Macbook connected to a TV. TR on my mac, and youtube on the TV.
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Lot’s of good comments that I haven’t thought of. I use many different things for different reasons.
- TR because I can watch Netflix, upload custom workouts from plans loaded in TrainingPeaks, and edit workouts, although there are issues with the editor on current versions of Adobe Air. I simply love the simplicity, but the UI could be updated and allow a bit more customization. Knowing how much you are about to suffer could mentally prepare you or demotivate you. What I would also like to see is a ML model that allows adjustment of efforts if you start failing to get you thru the workout with the best possible outcome.
- SF because it’s my group ride when I don’t want to go outside and do a group ride in the cold. I know I can suffer on any training ride but somehow SF gets me to suffer beyond what I think my limit is even with the music and the Mt Sufferlandria comments. Substituting songs with matching beats per min from a music service integration like Spotify would also be be worthy. I also love the transparency so when you are doing a workout with no video, you can make whatever you are watching bigger.
- Zwift because I can actually ride with friends and if they are not cheating on their w/kg, we can actually play a bit of can and mouse. Zwift just needs good group voice conferencing and spotify integration to allow your music to go lower when people are talking. That would simply be awesome.
As an older athlete, strength training becomes more important and all of these platforms fall short on that aspect. And that strength training needs to be specific and integrated with cycling. I thus acquire plans from elsewhere, import them into TrainingPeaks, then upload the custom mrc files to TRs workout creator. I understand that TR wants to promote their own workout plans but there are others who make excellent plans as well. I would love to see TR be able to load these plans. With the new calendar feature, I could get rid of TrainingPeaks. If they could license some synced motivational content, I wouldn’t use either Sufferfest.
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This does seem to be a recurring theme - the TR calender negates one of the reasons people use TP.
Research and evidence suggests otherwise and you need weight bearing movements. Strength training happens off the bike. Expecially as an older athlete it is important that a true strength training program is implemented. Furthermore, as an older athlete you are more likely to injury yourself trying to build strength “on” the bike, due to extra stress on joints, ligaments and tendons.
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TrainingPeaks has some data analytics that TR currently lacks. Like the performance management chart that I find helpful. If TR closed the analytics gap then TP could be eliminated.
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As somebody who has only very recently joined TR after 4 years of Zwift there are some suggestions in this thread that I like. Tellingly none are essential - I think this reflects on the strength of TR’s core function; fitness gains.
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The colour coded bars would be useful for somebody like me who is a complete noob to state what zone I am in. I get that TR has it’s identity, but the colour coding need not get in the way of that - e.g just the bottom-border part of the bar could represent the colour. Or a border at the top.
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The transparent background on the compact window would be useful (Currently resizing YouTube which tbh works fine).
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It would be nice if we could customise the text that is shown during the workouts. A vertical carousel type option (think Star Wars intro scrolling but with only 2 lines) would be nice with the previous text fading out getting smaller whilst the new one fast fades in, along with the ability to set the font sizes, or even location. I say this because I’m usually watching YouTube but don’t want to miss the information/instructions being provided to me.
I quit Zwift because I found their ‘flexible’ training plans were anything but. If I missed a scheduled workout there would be no ability to complete it later or move things around or pause plans, and this unfortunately led me to abandoning the plans altogether. Therefore I absolutely love the calendar feature that TR has.
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omg she’s the zuzka light of yoga
I’m just an average rec cyclist trying to get a little faster, lose weight and get stronger. Just finished my week trial of SF. It made me so thankful that TR employs some really great designers, coders and UX people. I came to TR from the podcast and it makes me realize what a genius move that was/is. Not only has the podcast totally increased my cycling IQ - but then coming to the product - it didn’t take any extra time investment to get up and running with a plan - and I was confident I was on the right plan - and I love listening to the podcast while I’m working out.
SF is just like a content bomb dropped on your head and I found myself getting frustrated pretty quickly. I don’t want to have a spend time reading blocks of text to figure out what to do. Maybe TR has spoiled me? The one thing I wanted to do in SF that you can’t do in TR is combine a cycling plan and strength plan. The one area that constantly perplexes me is how to add strength training into a cycling regimen without frying myself. I spent a half hour trying to do that in SF and all I ended up doing is adding some random strength videos to a calendar in Final Surge.
After the summer I’ll come back to SF for the strength stuff. Those workouts look really good. But other than that, it’s not for me. I’m glad I checked out SF cause it made me thankful for TR.
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I really like this idea.
That’s all tech firms do… mimic each other. Shamelessly! That’s exactly how they survive 
I have been riding for over 20 years and thought to give TR a go and I have given sufferfest a go as well as zwift bkool etc but what I have found with TR is I do an ftp test which actually comes close to all my other test including out on the road but when I am asked to do a workout they are way too hard and I have to reduce or give up. With sufferfest I am set at the same ftp which using their 4DP comes out at pretty much the same as TR but the workouts stretch me to the limits but I can finish the rides feeling I have achieved instead of failed. There must be something in this 4DP. I am not a die hard user of any system. I simply have to go with what works for me and right now it looks like sufferfest provides entertainment, yoga, strength and of course training plans for way cheaper than TR. so when my subscription ends that will be it for me on TR