That Triathlon Show | EP#169 - FTP, VO2max and VLaMax

Snap!

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Ok, you guys are hilarious (and perhaps correct). But to be fair, “medio/sweetspot” (even based on what is more likely a physiological threshold) is also useful. You got all yer bases covered here at the ole TrainerRoad.

Maybe that’s why I love riding 83% FTP. I mean, when I do that, I don’t even need to turn them into intervals. Just ride.

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In that case I’m agreeing with you. Perhaps I read your post too quickly!

Absolutely and perhaps even more so than sweet spot work based on a shorter test.

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So this basically explains why training has developed over the years into the way we have been told to train.

Z2 base miles to get your body ready for some more difficult workloads.

Then you do lots of tempo/SS to lower your VLaMax and raise the floor of your FTP.

Finally some VO2max efforts to raise the ceiling of your FTP.

Result: peak FTP.

Now we have some updated terminology to apply to basic training principles.

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Ratio of your VO2 max power and FTP is one input you could use. Eg what % of FTP is your max 5 min power?

If your VO2 max power is 125% of FTP, you might have higher VLaMax. And also maybe skew fast twitch muscle fibers, and carb burning.

If your VO2 max power is 115% of FTP, you might have lower VLaMax. And also maybe skew slow twitch muscle fibers and fat burning.

I think to use this interpretation, your FTP needs to actually be your MLSS power… so a 60 min test or some other long duration.

I think the ramp test won’t work, as the result from the ramp test I think is driven by both MLSS (or “true” long-test FTP) and Anaerobic contribution. Whereas what you want to isolate to use the interpretation above is MLSS power.

I think this is the kind of information TrainerRoad needs to build into Athlete profiles. I think it’s doable with the right tests on the trainer I.e. don’t need to absolutely go to a lab to determine ermine these points.

The other test TR I think needs to figure out is how to determine LT1. Ie the point where anaerobic metabolism starts to increase. Not sure the best test for this, but I’m sure some smart minds could figure something out!

So in summary, if you knew the following three results, I think it would be a pretty good start at building an athlete profile, and using that to inform training:

  1. Power at MLSS, or FTP over an appropriately long test e.g. 60 minutes.
  2. Power at VO2 max, as % of FTP
  3. Power at LT1, as % of FTP.

So that would give you your profile - then you’d need to pick the best training to move the needle on whatever metric you are targeting/prioritizing.

By the way, I think This is along the lines of what INSCYD does…

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On my commute last night I caught the last 10 mins of the podcast and realised that @Mikael_Eriksson actually provides the INSCYD testing. From looking at the INSCYD testing page on his website you can see that the VLaMax, VO2max etc. is calculated based on the power file from a single critical power test which includes:

  • 15-second sprint test.
  • 4-minute overpaced Time Trial.
  • 20-minute overpaced Time Trial.

So theoretically this is something that TR might be able to provide us with at some stage in the future.

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This good news. Looking forward to see this implemented. Good info!

One comment for that really good post. The ramp test is basically a function of your vo2 max. Because it is a faster ramp than other tests there may still be some more anaerobic contribution but that is the reason for the penalty if you go higher than the prescribed power. Ftp is estimated as always being .75 of your 1 min peak. I think it should work out to .84 of your 6 minute from the test assuming you were close to your target during earlier steps.

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I agree but I think it gives more than that. It goes a long to explaining why there are “outliers” to a particular training regime and more importantly and indicates in the right direction for them to go. It also, if done regularly, points to when a particular phase of training may have maxed out and again points the new direction to take.

Just took a look at the page you linked to. Very interesting stuff. Seems like some smart people have already figured out the testing needed👍🏼

By the way, any insight into how you actually pace an overpaced time trial? I assume it’s not just a wingate test lasting 4 or 20 minutes :tired_face:

That’s a better way of making the point I was looking to make. The ramp test is a function of VO2 max, hence estimates FTP off VO2max. Which is not perfect, as people have differing VLaMax profiles, meaning FTP is a different % of VO2 max depending on the rider.

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Thanks for taking the time @Mikael_Eriksson, and I can see this in my own history: plenty of work to do at the basic level.

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Yep - more consistent and more volume is probably the solution for most of us!

Life realities (work, family, etc.) can make this hard, so then we start to look for other Silver bullets to improve performance. I’m certainly guilty of this!

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From the FAQ’s:

Do a 4-minute Time Trial. Your effort must be overpaced, ie. you must start the effort significantly harder than what you can actually sustain. This is extremely important. Your power will inevitably start to decrease as you tire, but your only job is to simply go as hard as you can and hang on for dear life until the 4 minutes are up.

Do a 20-minute Time Trial. This too must be overpaced, as described for the 4-minute Time Trial.

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my life commitments make it hard for me to go out for long workouts. (Happy wife, happy life!) so I haven’t done much rides longer than 2 hours the past 4 years or so since becoming a father. However I still am getting a lot of the positive markers that we would normally associate with higher volume. Biggest factor IMO was not having that September/October dip in between previous season and starting base work.

Enjoyed this podcast. Especially at ~ the 43 minute mark where they start to talk about what specific training approches help to modulate VO2max/Vlamax.

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I don’t follow. .84x 6-min. power should give you what? I just looked at my last ramp test and that equals a few watts less than .75x 1-min.

<5 few?

I wonder this too. Seems to make sense. Any comment @Mikael_Eriksson? Thanks for the very interesting podcast!

Yes, less than 5. Actually I made a slight math mistake before - they’re within 1W of each other. You’re suggesting then that .84x6-min. is just an alternative formula for deriving FTP from the Ramp? What’s the value?