That Triathlon Show | EP#169 - FTP, VO2max and VLaMax


#125

You raise good questions about impact of sprint training and strength training on VLaMax.

I’d be interested to know the answers to these also. As usual, there seems to be no simple answers to anything when it comes to training!


#126

I wonder how anaerobic this single repetition 30 second test really is. There was just a single repeat per day.

When you listen to this podcast https://thattriathlonshow.libsyn.com/muscle-oxygen-saturation-smo2-with-roger-schmitz-ep85 @29:26min they show that high intensity intervals can still be aerobic (and thus not impacting VLaMax). I don’t say that a 30sec full-out interval is fully aerobic but I question how many seconds of this interval is really anaerobic where oxygen demand exceeds supply.


#127

I agree. I think there could be a very beneficial partnership to both parties. If I was TR, I’d arrange to whitelabel it so the TR brand is what customers see. All testing would be done within The TR app, data sent and received to/from INSCYD through appropriate APIs, and the customer stays within the TR ecosystem for the entire experience. The service could be priced in a few ways - per event, or a subscription for, say, 4 uses a year (or whatever frequency makes sense for testing like this).

The INSCYD team would get huge distribution, revenue share, and a massive database of information to fine tune their algorithms.

One risk is that the concept of VLaMax is still in its infancy in going mainstream - unlike VO2 max.

So I think there’s still more to learn on best training programs to improve VLaMax.

For example, see post below with evidence indicating sprint interval training decreases VLaMax. … which seems a little counter intuitive.

All in though, I think a partnership makes a lot of sense.


Wake Up Trainerroad!
#128

There’s actually another step to the INSCYD remote Critical Power Testing - it requires analysis of the power file in third party software such as WKO or Golden Cheetah, before the numbers are input into INSCYD.

See this page:
https://www.inscyd.com/inscyd-functions

I think a partnership is unlikely, but it’s conceivably something that TR could build in, assuming they wanted to go down this direction. I imagine building the correct algorithm would be a lot of work, but it could be worth a feature request :slightly_smiling_face: It’d give TR a competitive advantage if they could incorporate this into the software.


#129

It’s an interesting idea, but this stuff is about 5 seconds old at this point. It’s still very much in the hype stage. Sure, Pro Tour teams have been using it for awhile but very few amateurs have heard of this stuff.

I see a partnership between TrainerRoad and TrainingPeaks to be way more likely than TR incorporating VLaMax algorithms. But time will tell.


#130

Does anyone know the costs of INSCYD? I believe you have to be a coach to get it? Will that mean anyone who is qualified at some level or another? Given that I am about to undertake some coaching qualifications I’m certainly keen to know what they might be.


#131

Good opportunity for TR to get ahead of the game :wink:

It doesn’t tell you the cost on their site… so I’m guessing it’s really pricey!


#132

Yes, almost like “if you have to ask…”


#133

For the sprint interval training they are doing the Wingate anaerobic test (https://www.scienceforsport.com/wingate-anaerobic-test/) which is often used to measure anaerobic capacity, so I assume its mostly anaerobic.

If i’m understanding it correctly, then one reassuring conclusion from this paper is that almost any type of training (above 30s) should help endurance performance (by some combination of lowering VLAmax or increasing V02max).

One implication of that is how do you increase VLAmax (is it only by super short <30s sprint work). It’s interesting to note the group that performed sprint training saw no improvement in sprint power (Pmax).


#134

Not directly but Sebastian Weber who is behind INSCYD is founder of STAPS and they offer performance diagnostics starting at €239,- (~$270.-) https://staps-online.com/en/radsport/#diagnostik for a one time diagnostic. I guess that results are coming fro INSCYD.


#135

OK, let it be anaerobic but it still triggers the question if a single effort a day will trigger adaptation. This would also explain


#136

Thanks.

Mikael is doing it cheaper than that. He has a couple of packages, from 150 euro to 250 euro. The 200 euro is the one I was looking at as lap testing nearing me is £180, so slightly more than 200 euro’s.


#137

Not sure what you mean by this exactly. The training protocol was described:

The sprint interval training started with a warm-up session, consisting of 10 min pedalling at a power of 1.5 W∙kg-1 body mass, followed by 30 seconds all-out effort Wingate anaerobic tests [19] against a resistance equivalent to 0.075 kg/kg body mass on the same cycle ergometer. The number of Wingate tests performed during each training session increased from four during the first and second week to five tests during the third and fourth week, and six tests during the fifth and sixth week. Between the Wingate tests, a recovery interval (cycled against 30 W with cadence below 50 rpm) was fixed at 4.5 min. Therefore, a complete training session would take 30 min in the first two weeks, 35 min in the middle term and 40 min in the last two weeks.


#138

Sorry, I misread it. I understood “training session” equals week but the last sentence makes it pretty clear that several tests were performed on a single day.


#139

This is something TR could do, no?

That’d be quite a feature request!


#140

Probably is. But with the volume TR could potentially bring, I’d bet they could negotiate good pricing :grin:

As @tshortt said, this stuff is in its infancy for mainstream, but super interesting. Assuming there’s a “there there”, the clarity of the INSCYD profiles is very alluring.


#141

Absolutely. I just thought it’d be worth highlighting that there is that extra step in there. I’m not sure exactly what data INSCYD requires, so no idea how much work would be involved in TR developing the code to get the required numbers from their workout files.


#142

I bet this is already in the works and Chad is testing his lactate levels right now!


#143

Have listened to podcast and read thread above.

My questions/musings. Triathlon related. Implications are different for single versus multi-sport.

  1. Are V02max and VlaMax equally responsive to training?

  2. What are the psychological differences in trying to improve V02max versus VlaMax? My gut feeling is that V02max takes a greater emotional toll, which has implications for sustainability of programme.

  3. What are the physical toll differences in trying to improve V02max versus VlaMax? Again, my gut feeling is that V02max work comes with greater risk of injury, and impacts on ability to be consistent with other disciplines.

Fascinating podcast


#144

Not sure about your other two questions but I was just listening to the audio of a webinar from INSCYD and Dan Lorang said he gives 6-8 weeks for a block of training to increase or decrease VLamax. He discusses VO2max but I couldn’t catch if he said how long to expect changes.

(~30:30mins into the talk)