To be fair, the power meter probably is accurate—the Kickr isn’t. The good news is that you can use the Wahoo Fitness app to use the power from your meter instead of the trainer itself.
From the iOS app (for some reason this isn’t available on Android), open Wahoo Fitness, then sensors. Choose your Kickr, then toggle the “Control w/ Ant+ Power Meter” option and enter your PM’s Ant+ ID.
From then on, it will read power from your meter instead. It’s not as mindless as pure erg mode, but it’s easier to stay on target than using PowerMatch imo. Easy peasy.
Thank you for the suggestion. I still wouldnt know whether or not the Assioma PM or the PowerTap PM is accurate. Each of them gives reliably different numbers.
Got me? I haven’t. TR can cause sufficient paining without aid.
That being said, I’m fairly diligent about bike set up every training session. I try to set the cyclops up the same way each time. Same tire pressure. Etc. I’d imagine a wheel off smart trainer would reduce the variability and save time. Not to mention, fluid trainers degrade over time. But man, I can buy a lot of dumb trainers that perform poorly over time for the cost of a smart trainer. Maybe I need to change my username to CheapBastard? Not to mention, old! I often don’t do the ramp ups and clearing stuff. I make it up with a little over riding later in the session.
IMO, as long as I’m intellectually honest and make sure the rides are equally hard or harder than road rides I’m ok with my dumb training. I know what it feels like to hold 300. I know 500-600 sucks. Don’t cheat.
Except the “clearing stuff” has a specific purpose that “a little over riding later” can’t deliver. But I understand where you’re coming from; as has been said in the workout text, sometimes the warm-up is the hardest part of the work out.
Maybe I need to change my username to CheapBastard? Not to mention, old!
OldCheapBastard? Maybe your hilarious TR alter ego!
Thank you for your interest @summerson. It’s about 4-5%. It’s within the normal-ish range. I’ve come to accept that PMs are probably not as accurate as I wish they were…just like my bathroom scale isn’t really that accurate. But I only paid a few bucks for my bathroom scale, and I’ve sunk a crapload into PMs.
As long as they are reliable, and I think mine are, including the smart trainer, then the training on TR is mostly all the same. I really like the smart trainer, and I’m glad I bought it. But as of right now I don’t really know if my FTP is 295 or 307 or 313 or 317 or 327 or 336. Those are all different numbers I get depending on the evaluation (anywhere from TR Ramp test to 95% of 20min power during a Zwift race to Modeled FTP in WKO4 to my own hunch) and the PM.
I remember doing a ramp test and getting a FTP of like 286 when my modeled FTP in WKO4 was 336 a week prior.
And I think that maybe an exact number (a) doesn’t really matter too much and (b) it’s silly for me to put so much emphasis on a discrete number because there’s so much error just about everywhere (especially in me, with fatigue and perceived exertion) and that it’s the training standard that’s the critical thing.
And, most of all (c) I don’t really know what I’m talking about and apologies if I sound like I do. I’m just not that excited to have spent $1000 on a smart trainer that gives me a new set of numbers that is, once again, different than a PM I spent $800 on and another I spent $600 on. Fortunately I’m not that bummed; pretty psyched, actually, because all of this is so interesting. I’m just bummed enough so to mention it in my response to the OP.
Random thought: You know what’s amazing?!? Going down to sea level and crushing power records. It is INCREDIBLE how much influence altitude has on power. Have you experienced this?
What has your experience been like getting different power numbers/FTPs? Has it been pretty consistent and expected, or has there been a level of unexplained variance?
You are absolutely right. I should extend the warm up. Marginal gains. I’m good without the extra time on the trainer. I’m just a slow to warm up old dude. Looking at my Strava, many of my hard rides are better in the latter half. Perhaps, it is in my head or it’s due to me never doing the clearing? Not sure, but hey 50 year old dude go raise your heart rate to 170 after 5 minutes. Not happening for me. I prefer the trainer over cardiac arrest.
If only I were actually funny!
Good stuff! Loving the forum and not being on Facebook.
I agree with this statement completely. I HATED my fluid trainer, but I look forward to using my KICKR. I would never, ever have followed a structured trainer program like this on the Fluid. I bought my KICKR last fall in advance of a major hip surgery, I knew I wouldn’t be able to ride out on the road for a months so to avoid totally crashing I figured at least I could spin on Zwift or something. I ended up adopting TrainerRoad at the suggestion of a triathlete friend, and I can honestly say no one thing I’ve ever done in almost 30 years of serious cycling and bike racing has made a bigger difference in my training.
It’s not your old dudeism. On the road, it’s always taken me ~45 mins to get warmed up and get all the gunk clearned out — even when I was 25. I’m also a strong second half kinda guy. So maybe it’s just our genetic lot in life.
I believe. I did the clearing stuff today. Luckily, my phone rang during the 3rd interval! My body was thinking WTF!? My mind was thinking there is a God! I’ll talk to a telemarketer right now.
I’ll keep working at it. I chalked it up as age. Let’s see with time if I can make genetics subcome to hard work. If so, I’ll work on my height next.
I have a kinetic road machine with bluetooth. The power readings read about 8 to 10% high at lower power (100-300w) and 8 to 10% low at higher watts (anything over 500). That being said, I just took the battery out the trainer and use my stages to give me an accurate number. It’s the same exact effort I would give on the road because it’s coming from the same exact power source.
Having switched the resistance unit on my STAC from the low end dumb one to the Halcyon smart one, maybe I can answer this. I always had a lot of trouble with the in-workout cadence drills, you can’t change cadence and maintain the same power target very easily. With a smart trainer, I can practice any cadence at any power target. I feel like I get better practice at choosing the cadence I want to train rather than having a very small menu of viable options, depending on exactly what power target I’m going for at that moment.
That said… it’s pretty marginal. A really good fan probably makes a bigger difference.
I was an early convert to the first Kickr so I don’t have recent experience on a dumb trainer, but erg mode really gives you a few big benefits, all of which are mentioned above so I won’t go into a ton of detail…
Ability to practice cadence without impacting power - you listed this as a potential minus in your first post, but on a smart trainer you actually can train a variety of cadences at your target power and be better prepared for being stuck between gears outside
You only HAVE to pedal - on easy rides this can mean watching a movie or your favorite sporting event and letting the trainer handle everything for you. On hard rides this can mean you won’t have to shift and focus on the power jumps by changing your cadence or worry about what the degradation is doing to your power numbers. You either are hitting the number or you aren’t pedaling
That said - if you can hit your numbers on a wide variety of power and duration intervals there isn’t a must-have reason to buy a smart trainer. They are nicer and they make a lot of things easier, but if you’re focused and driven enough they don’t actually make the training ‘better’.
In the grand scheme of things you can get one for anywhere from half to a tenth of a price of a new bike (depending on your bike tastes) - so consider your bike spend budget for a year and how much time you’re actually going to spend on the trainer. If you’re committed to inside riding then buying yourself a nice electronic trainer is a great value. It is cheaper than a nice set of wheels and can make a (variably) miserable experience better. There are many things to be cheap about, but if you’re throwing thousands of dollars into cycling every year anyway, this is probably not one of them. If however you’ve got a single steel bike that you’ve lovingly maintained for the last 20 years due to your strict budget then stick with the dumb trainer - you’re better off investing in indexed shifters
My fan has made indoor training tolerable. I didn’t know how much it mattered, but the quality of workouts I’ve gotten with the combo of TR and the improved fan has opened my eyes about how much progress I can make indoors.
This is a good point, something I run in to on some of my outdoor rides, where I am pretty good well above threshold at lower cadences, but not as good at my normal flat road cadence.
A last good point. Odds are, I’m going to get a ton of use out of this and it’s probably going to be the one thing that makes me faster above anything else by improving the engine.
I started on a KK Road Machine (dumb, wheel-on), and then invested in an Elite Direto a year ago. Here’s a couple things I can add to what’s already been said about the differences:
If you have lots of time on the dumb trainer, and have never ridden a smart trainer in ERG mode at all, expect some non-intuitive differences in the experience and give yourself some time to get used to them. On the dumb trainer, for any given gear, pedalling harder = higher cadence = more watts. If you overshoot, you ease up; start losing power, you push harder — all intuitive. You’re in charge. When I changed to the Direto I was baffled. When I pedalled harder to meet a new target, the cadence would go up, but the felt resistance would drop instead of increase (clever ERG!) and the recorded power would stay the same, or sometimes drop, and sometimes spike. So I would ease up to bring the cadence back, and then get hit with a wall. It felt like the trainer and I were terribly out of phase any time the target changed, and fighting each other. It took some other tweaks as well to make peace with ERG mode, and now I like it, but my point here is that it responds quite differently from what I had come to expect on the trusty “dumb” trainer, and it took time to get used to.
This point actually relates to wheel-on vs wheel-off, not dumb vs smart, but I only found out after I had given the KK Road Machine to my son in another city how much I had relied on it for other jobs than training. It also doubles as a level and solid repair and fitting stand, and since the rear wheel is on and can spin freely, you’re able to adjust brakes, align sensors, check hub, etc, also tweak bike fit. The smart trainer just isn’t as handy for these uses as the old dumb one was. So I’d say hang on to the old workhorse for awhile even if you get a nifty new trainer with an astronomical IQ. The new one may know rocket science but not how to chop wood.
After doing a couple of years with virtual power, the start of this season I got a power meter. Following a crash, and on a whim with a good offer, I got a Hammer smart trainer. I think if both the power meter or smart trainer broke, and I could only afford to replace one, I’d replace the trainer.
I do my structured training indoors, and with erg mode, I’m getting full benefit of the cadence drills. I also used to overshoot target when on my dumb trainer - At the time, I thought this was of long term benefit, but now I’m not convinced. Coach Chad sets the targets for a reason! On anything other than VO2 Max, I can at least follow something on the TV (I normally catch up on pro races during sessions).
On getting a power meter, I also found that my outdoor FTP was different to my indoor FTP, based off an indoor test, and my data from outdoor races. One of the selling points often quoted of a power meter over smart trainer is the carry over from indoors to out, which didn’t happen for me.
Anyway, for what it’s worth, this is my experience going from a wheel off dumb trainer and virtual power → wheel off dumb trainer and power meter → wheel off smart trainer and power meter* over this season.
*Because of the indoor v outdoor ftp issue, and on verifying the hammer was accurate enough for me against my single sided 4iii, I’ve set up an old road bike as a dedicated trainer bike now. So I only have the power meter outside.
A turbo trainer is only a good training tool so long as you are on it. So, if a smart trainer will get you on the turbo more frequently, or keep you on it longer once you are on then its a benefit.
So for me, benefits of upgrading a turbo trainer over something ‘simple’ (yet amazingly effective like the KK):
Direct drive - its nice and clean, saves having to keep a spare wheel around
Inertia (Neo only) - makes it more realistic, but the pro flywheel was very good, i’d say only worth it if doing lots of aero position work or LOTS of work on the turbo with no riding outside for long periods
Powermeter - useful if you don’t have a powermeter, though i’d argue powermeter+dumb trainer would be better than a smart trainer
Erg Mode - Train how you mean to race, when you are out on the road/race you don’t have erg mode. For me it’s only useful in over/under intervals for the first ~10 seconds of the ‘under’.
Zwift integration - I don’t do much on zwift so this is quite irrelevant for me, I can see it being a strong reason for hardcore zwifters though.
If any of those reasons is worth ~£750 to buy a Neo over something like a second hand Kurt Kinetic with a pro flywheel then I’d say buy the Neo. Otherwise it’s mostly a nice to have/FOMO thing IMO.
I previously used a KK rock n roll turbo with the pro flywheel, it was a fantastic trainer with lots of inertia and did everything I wanted.
I upgraded to a Kickr, after ~3 weeks I sent it back as it wasn’t worth it. Direct drive was nice but the erg mode was mostly irrelevant and the inertia was lower than the KK.
a year later I bought a Neo. Inertia is great, direct drive is also nice as is erg mode for a very small number of intervals.
